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 Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)

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Josh
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PostSubject: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 10:48 am

Alright, so, maybe let's make this topic a bit serious, because I am genuinely curious as to why people think the United States is so great? This idea of freedom isn't exactly something unique to the USA, nor even a minority of the world. Hell, a lot of the world has freedom, so it's hardly that which makes it "so great. Hell, based on human rights and political rights, the USA doesn't even have the best democracy!
Source: http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

Maybe it's your education? No, I don't think it is either.
http://fairreporters.net/world/the-best-education-systems-in-the-world-in-2015/
http://www.edudemic.com/learning-curve-report-education/
Not even in the top 10 for education systems. So, that's not what makes it so great.

Healthcare isn't as great in the US as elsewhere either:
http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

'murika also has the largest amount of debt in the world
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2011/01/28/the-10-countries-with-the-most-debt
Albeit, it's not in the most dire situation, but it's still there and always will be.
Follow that up with, 'murika doesn't have the greatest GDP per capita either: http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-richest-countries-in-the-world-2016-3

Ah! I know! It must be one of the safest countries in the world right? Waaait no. Can't be that either.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/oct/02/mass-shootings-america-gun-violence
I mean, jesus christ. Gun crime is so horrific in America, seriously, you've got a problem. I get you like your weapons, but is there a point where you think? "Yeaaah alright, others have ruined it for us." Or is that not gonna sink in? Sure, mass shootings may never go away entirely, but they caaaan be reduced massively. Look at Australia, look at the UK.

And then police? Now, I am not a hater of the police, but in America you really do have a Fiddlesticks. system at times, and I do believe it is only the minority of police officers who are bad, I always want to support the police, but damn:
http://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
I mean, if guns were taken away, maybe less cops would claim they were justified because they were armed. Maybe. Just maybe.


Now don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating the day you became independent, and got away from the UK. Seriously, nothing against that. But celebrating the idea that America is so great? I don't see why. Heck, even celebrating the rest of your history is a bit eh. I mean, your golden age was fueled by slavery! I don't forget elsewhere had slavery, but, yeah, your golden age was off of the backs of slaves, of the black people, who hell, they are still being discriminated against now.

So please, I'm fully prepared to admit I'm wrong or too cynical, but I want to see evidence of what makes America so great in this day and age, because I really don't see why America is so great anymore. Certainly not now.

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 11:03 am

Literally only read the first paragraph, and I don't intend on reading any more of it. I usually am respectful when someone wants to have a debate. This topic, however, wasn't that. This topic was about people whom respected and celebrated the United States, most of which I assume live here. It was our independence day. A holiday we celebrate because it marks a very important event in our history. Literally about "We The People." This holiday is ours.

I really don't care that I'm risking getting an admin scolding for this. But dude, what an a-hole move. You seriously typed paragraphs about the USA not being great because you saw people praising it? You came to a topic with the title "Happy Independence Day" and felt this was actually appropriate? It's entirely disrespectful. I personally love arguing too, is the worst part. But based on how you did this? This isn't a debate. It's petty, at best.

There's a lot of countries I love. But this is the land I love, even if it pisses you off. I could type books about the reasons why, but honestly, I'm not going to bother. This isn't you being genuinely curious. You don't actually want reasons, whether they be fact or opinion. This is you wanting to bash the USA no matter what. Otherwise you would have had the decency to at least post a new topic, to discuss this.

I lost a lot of respect for you, dude. I would have never bashed the United Kingdom over people having pride for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 1:58 pm

If you intend on accusing someone of an A-hole move, the least you can do is read the entire paragraph, lest you sound bigoted.
If you'd have done the courteousy of reading the whole thing, you'd have seen at the end I have put I have absolutely nothing against the day itself nor what the day stands for. However, you say this is poor timing for what I said and the wrong topic, but why is it? Surely this is the most apt day to discuss the issues I mentioned. How America did go from doing something great, to falling. On the day you celebrate this great action, it's also time to see how things have changed, and not for the better.

You're not getting an admin scolding for this, and you can lose respect for me, I'll still sleep, if you don't wish to discuss why you love America fine. I've admitted to being wrong before, I can quite easily do so again, I am not beyond admitting to being wrong. Plus, had you bashed the UK I would probably have joined in ahaha. There are things wrong with this country and things I'd love to be changed. There are things I am proud of within my own country too, and I would be fine discussing those. I simply asked what do you and anyone else think is great because all I see are reasons to say it's greatness has declined. So instead of getting all heated and pissy, just talk it through. Always easier.

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 2:13 pm

[shows up to the discourse in my "magneto was right" t-shirt] now let's get #controversial

tbh, from experience, those who think america is great are generally white, cis, straight, evangelical christian men who've never had to actually deal with how awful it is. from a jewish lesbian woman's pov, america sucks, esp the south. i have a friend whose jewish mother married into a gentile family, and my friend has to go to family reunions knowing his dad's half of the family is full of members of the klan. i have to go through family reunions knowing that half of my mom's family thinks my family is full of heathens. i'm still not over the orlando shooting, which the shooter was able to carry out because we haven't passed a law that makes it so people on the terrorist watchlist can't purchase guns. the shooter was on the terrorist watchlist and legally bought a gun

believe me, i know how awful america is. i just get exhausted from dealing with it all the time. i like having a day off where i can ignore the fact that i can get fired for being gay and can't sue for discrimination and just shout "USA USA USA USA" for a bit and pretend this county was made for people like me. being an activist honestly gets exhausting

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 4:07 pm

I wouldn't classify America as being great coming from a southern (North Carolina) African American closeted homoromantic point of view. Yes, I know things have gotten better, but still. It's just...almost depressing. There's always this thought at the back of my mind wondering if the person beside me, behind me, in front of me thinks that I'm going to steal from them. It's, like Lila said, "exhausting". Racism is more convert now which is frightening...but I digress.

Now aside from the fact that America was built on the imperialization of one race and on the backs of another (mine. Actually, both mine, but details, details)  and of course white  privilege, I think this Country is...doing okay. We're far from perfect and have our issues, but what Country doesn't? The point is, let's make America great and better! (because it wasn't before. Hella shade).

That's my two cent worth.
Also shoutout to Lila because she knows the struggle.
Also it saddens me that the Klan is still around. Get your life together and step into the 21st century.
Thank you to the troops who risk their lives for this country! And I mean that wholeheartedly.


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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 4:13 pm

I'm glad I'm not the only one who see's the faults. Don't get me wrong, I do not hate America, far from it. Just, all we get to see over here in the UK is negative after negative. So, maybe I'm seeing America through a coloured screen, but having your two perspectives too makes makes me think. It does have potential, definitely, to be great. And it's not all bad, nowhere near. I just feel theres lot's of room for improvement, so too does the UK and such. I just felt this topic, whilst praising America for what it did a long flax-wench time ago, is also a fitting place to point out, "Actually, it isn't so great", but it can be. I liked Sanders because I feel he could have pushed it towards that direction and changed a lot of the faults I mentioned in the original topic.

As for Metilinos, see, I'm not the only one who feels this way. Others bear these feelings too. I have not said things just to be petty because "ugh people celebrating, let's put them down", but because when celebrating the good, you have to remember the bad and try to reflect and think what can make it all good.
Or just accuse me of being petty and sad little grumpy brit, your choice.

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 4:25 pm

I can't read this anymore. You guys completely ruined a topic that was to celebrate a country for its accomplishments. Yea sure we all have skeletons in our closets and we all have our faults, but that doesn't mean we can't celebrate our countries for the things they did do that were so great. I would like to point out, even if America doesn't have the greatest things in the world, they still have a lot better than what third world countries have. Clean water, some form of health care, they don't have mass malnutrition. America is helping everyone else when they can and if they can.

I'm not even American and I feel very offended for those who are. Josh you had absolutely no right to even say those things. I agree with John if you wanted to talk about this kind of stuff you should have made another topic. This is absolute Bullsh!t and it was an incredibly a-hole move on your part.

I am deeply disappointed in you.

This is not the topic to bring up a country's faults and and belittle them. Not at all. I don't even care if I get a warning for this, but fuc-k you. Honestly.

By the way, happy belated independence day America!
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PostSubject: Because People are pissy. (Also america isnt that great)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 4:35 pm

...Happy Independence Day America!
Happy very belated Emancipation Proclamation (January 1, 1863) day since we're talking about freedom.
Happy very belated Women's Right to Vote Day (June 4, 1919)
Happy very belated Gay Rights Day (June 26, 2015)
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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 4:55 pm

Belle wrote:
I can't read this anymore. You guys completely ruined a topic that was to celebrate a country for its accomplishments. Yea sure we all have skeletons in our closets and we all have our faults, but that doesn't mean we can't celebrate our countries for the things they did do that were so great. I would like to point out, even if America doesn't have the greatest things in the world, they still have a lot better than what third world countries have. Clean water, some form of health care, they don't have mass malnutrition. America is helping everyone else when they can and if they can.

I'm not even American and I feel very offended for those who are. Josh you had absolutely no right to even say those things. I agree with John if you wanted to talk about this kind of stuff you should have made another topic. This is absolute Bullsh!t and it was an incredibly a-hole move on your part.

I am deeply disappointed in you.

This is not the topic to bring up a country's faults and and belittle them. Not at all. I don't even care if I get a warning for this, but fuc-k you. Honestly.

By the way, happy belated independence day America!


Do I need to keep repeating it? I have not taken away the accomplishments xD I said there's nothing wrong in celebrating the independence from the UK part. But why do I have to make a separate topic for it? We have a stupid number of topics anyway, personally I feel that if things are related they should be kept together. Birthday topics for example, all in one topic rather than loads of clutter. But that's a different point. And well, considering it was this independence day which caused me to have these thoughts... well it seemed appropriate.

Plus, you could just have easily made another topic to go "Josh is an a55hole, and can't say those things!" rather than tainting this wonderful topic further. Because you know I'm going to reply anyway. But since I you're all so feisty and a little bit pathetic tbh, I split it for you, now can you keep your tears in?

Regarding this, as I also said, I never said America was the worst in the world, I simply pointed out, it just isn't great. I know it's doing better than many places, as all the sources I posted show as well, funnily enough, but it isn't "great", so if in a topic where people have moved away from celebrating literally just celebrating the original independence, to the modern day: "and that I believe continues to fuel our desire for freedom, liberty, and justice. Love you, United States, stay beautiful!" Yeah, I felt I could respond to that and say "Actually... eh... it's not really beautiful in all ways though is it?"

Ironically, "Let's celebrate America's freedom" but should someone by cynical, sod their freedom! Insult them!
Sometimes this site does make me laugh.

I would however give you a warning for being directly insulting, as that was something I never did, so was a bit unjust tbh, but I think the warning system is a waste of time, so I'll leave that for now, saying that, I can just jump to other punishments, I mean, I do have discretion to do so... But for now, I'm good. I can take a little petty insult.


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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 5:36 pm

There's no point in wasting my breath. I know that for a fact. Because hey, I'm straight, male, and white, which means my opinions on my country are null. That's okay though, because that isn't segregating.

Well, it is, but not according to a lot of people it isn't. I don't let that stuff bother me, because I have thicker skin than to let people tell me my sexual preference, skin color, or gender dictates anything about me. It doesn't.

Josh, I get that you're proud of your roots. That is awesome, really, it is, everyone should be. But I don't dare step on the downfalls of the U.K. They certainly exist, but I don't seek them out and attack the English people with them. The USA certainly has its own downfalls. But to me, living isn't about trying to justify my country as the best, or even find the best country to live in. It's about knowing what I have and how lucky I am. Yeah, on Facebook I'm constantly ridiculed because I "can't understand any type of segregation" even though that is segregation. But, so what? My country gives me shelter. I have stable laws, public services, job opportunity. I have a culture that's diverse that I get to follow. Plenty of downfalls, like all countries, but it would be absolutely stupid to mope around over those problems. That isn't what life is about. Life is about fixing those problems.

I'm not sorry. You know what you did. As an administrator, it's even worse. You're supposed to be an unbiased voice. A mediator who solves issues when they arise. Yet the second people praise the United States, you vault into action to shut that down. I love my country, try all you want to pull, but the pride isn't going anywhere. What you did is the equivalent of showing up to a homosexual pride parade to scold people over their feelings. People do it, but it's just wrong. So, you should really choose if that's the kind of person you want to be.

And I get why you want me to read everything you wrote. But, no, the first paragraph was enough to be able to say the post was entirely offensive. And I'm not obligated to read what you type. It doesn't make me a bigot to ignore offensive people and gestures. Unless the rest of it was "Ha, I'm just kidding, it would be so rude to start bashing this because it's meant to celebrate it." I somehow doubt it's anything like that.

I said I wouldn't waste my breath, but I have. Can't you just leave it alone, dude? Doesn't it bother you that you've offended people who were just proud of their heritage? We haven't hurt anyone at all by making the thread. Didn't do anything wrong. So why is it so hard for you to skim by it and say "another culture celebrating their culture" and move on?
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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 6:18 pm

I'm going to address your last point before going back to the start: The reason I'm not just "leaving it alone" is because if you make a point to me, I am going to respond, even if just to say "You're right." or something (however, I'm not saying that now.") If you choose not to respond, that's your decision, but, I am going to reply, calmly.

Right, starting with the top of that comment then.
Fishy never said your opinion is invalid because of your race/sexuality/gender, she pointed out that there is a common denominator in people who think America is the greatest. And that there is a common denominator in those who don't. That is it. No one has said a specific group is not entitled to an opinion, rather this topic is literally all about getting different people's opinions.

As for my roots, if you read through my comments, you'd see that I said I would literally bash the UK myself. Our Empire was built off of oppressing others, our current system is collapsing, the country is divided and a mess. I am under no illusions there. Saying that, yeah, I am happy to be British too, though I would also be happy to be Finnish or from a few other places (though not French... Ew).

I have never stated "down with America" or anything, I never said I hate America either. Hell, there's good too, your Universities are top notch (something the UK could've learnt from by being independently funded...), but after all the praise I brought in my comment to
A: spark discussion
B: so that there are no illusions, because when focusing on the greatness, one has to remember there is negatives too.
You say it'd be stupid to mope about these problems, but it'd be naive to ignore them and not discuss them. My choice of topic I felt was apt as it balanced the positives and the negatives.
As for saying it's like storming into a Pride parade, not at all. I brought in fact, people who bash that only have the bible and that should never be used as evidence. I stated fact to counter, with sources. And even then, I didn't even hate on the day itself nor the celebrations, as I keep saying, I addressed a separate, but entirely related, point, and called for a rational thought about it rather than simply entire glorification of something which today, arguably, isn't deserved (To repeat NOWADAYS isn't deserved, not the ORIGINAL DATE)

As for being unbiased. Since when was that part of my job description? None of us ever agreed to be unbiased on topics like this. We all have biases, that's human nature. Hell, your president has biases too, there's a reason you have different political parties. The only thing I will admit wasn't admin-like was the pathetic comment (And similar), and so I will take that back. But, everything else, that is entirely within my rights.

And isn't it naive to reply to someone in an argument without reading their comments? Considering at several points I've addressed things you've said already, such as praising the independence day, and bashing the UK

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 6:36 pm

You opened with something offensive. Like I said, not my responsibility to keep reading after that. This isn't Howard Stern, I'm not going to use my time and effort to read something that I know is going to make me angry. You didn't in particular say "America is bad" or anything. But, you have made the implication very clear. It's passive aggressiveness at its finest. Maybe you don't mean to be, but you are being like that, and more people than just me think that. You're purposely triggering something because you don't support it. Like I said, that sucks. But it isn't up to you what everyone else does and doesn't support. So, why bother with it? This country hardly effects you to a large extent.

The founding fathers actually didn't want separate parties. They predicted it would divide people based on beliefs instead of working towards a more perfect union as a whole. Which, I would absolutely agree with. I acknowledge our issues and gaps that need to be fixed. But I don't mope. I'd rather lead by example. People don't learn to be better and less prejudice by just targeting other groups. Problems have never gotten fixed because people just wanted them to. Whether it means peaceful protests, going out to vote, or just being a decent person? Right on. I'm all for fighting for what's right. Attacking someone's positive feelings for their country? Not right on. That's rude. And frankly, none of your business. The thread that triggered you was "Happy Independence Day" not "We're the best country ever and we're bragging about it."

Homophobia isn't strictly religion, that's really awkward to suggest, to be honest. That's segregating a religion, unless I'm reading what you're saying wrong, because it's a little oddly phrased. Love America or hate it, your opinion won't ever harm my country. But I ask you be respectful, as I have been to you. You've been rude. You've even admitted it, but you haven't said sorry. No, you just "took it back." Dude, ban me if that's what makes you feel good. I'm not worried, to be honest. There's a line I have to draw here. And if this is going to go a personal route between us, I'd appreciate if you PM me or Skype me.
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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 6:48 pm

Alright. This has gotten further than it should have.
- Josh: you've been rude to Belle and John, as I've already pointed out to you.
- John: reading everything Josh said in the first place would've made this debate much easier. You just picked and chose what you wanted to reply to. And, you've been rude as well.
- Belle: I'm afraid Josh had the right to say those things. Free speech and all that. It was not against our rules, but you saying fuc-k you was.

All three of you are getting warnings. Now let this be the end of it.

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/7/2016, 6:59 pm

Metilinos wrote:
You opened with something offensive. Like I said, not my responsibility to keep reading after that. This isn't Howard Stern, I'm not going to use my time and effort to read something that I know is going to make me angry. You didn't in particular say "America is bad" or anything. But, you have made the implication very clear. It's passive aggressiveness at its finest. Maybe you don't mean to be, but you are being like that, and more people than just me think that. You're purposely triggering something because you don't support it. Like I said, that sucks. But it isn't up to you what everyone else does and doesn't support. So, why bother with it? This country hardly effects you to a large extent.

The founding fathers actually didn't want separate parties. They predicted it would divide people based on beliefs instead of working towards a more perfect union as a whole. Which, I would absolutely agree with. I acknowledge our issues and gaps that need to be fixed. But I don't mope. I'd rather lead by example. People don't learn to be better and less prejudice by just targeting other groups. Problems have never gotten fixed because people just wanted them to. Whether it means peaceful protests, going out to vote, or just being a decent person? Right on. I'm all for fighting for what's right. Attacking someone's positive feelings for their country? Not right on. That's rude. And frankly, none of your business. The thread that triggered you was "Happy Independence Day" not "We're the best country ever and we're bragging about it."

Homophobia isn't strictly religion, that's really awkward to suggest, to be honest. That's segregating a religion, unless I'm reading what you're saying wrong, because it's a little oddly phrased. Love America or hate it, your opinion won't ever harm my country. But I ask you be respectful, as I have been to you. You've been rude. You've even admitted it, but you haven't said sorry. No, you just "took it back." Dude, ban me if that's what makes you feel good. I'm not worried, to be honest. There's a line I have to draw here. And if this is going to go a personal route between us, I'd appreciate if you PM me or Skype me.

"Alright, so, maybe let's make this topic a bit serious, because I am genuinely curious as to why people think the United States is so great? "
This was my opening. If anything, I could understand more hate to my traitors joke on the day itself! Not this opening made several days later. So I don't see how that could have angered you? My entire topic was simply facts and stats. And since you're insisting on not reading what I put; "Now don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with celebrating the day you became independent, and got away from the UK. Seriously, nothing against that." There. Literally what I put. As for any implications, I didn't implicate America was bad, I said it needed to change. As I've also said the UK does. And everywhere else for that matter, each place needs improvements. If I know enough about the country, I will comment. I could've done so about the Canada day topic, but I didn't simply because I don't know enough about Canada if I'm honest. Whereas America, with how popular it is on our news over here, I've researched, so yes, I felt I could comment. If you have facts for the UK too, hell, count me in for a debate on that (though if its negative about the current Conservatives, Ill more than likely just agree). So to suggest I'm just passive agressive towards America, is simply because I only commented on this topic and is an inaccurate accusation as I'll be cynical about plenty of other places too.

Also, as for me not having a reason to have an opinion, oh there is plenty of reason. Considering America is one of Britain's closest allies and someone we do a good deal amount of trading with, the state of America has an impact over here too. Just as a Brexit has even affect the American financial market. So, yeah. At the same time, isn't it hypocritical to say it isn't up to me what others think and then tell me to stop criticising? Surely I'm allowed to have thoughts too and to share them? I mean, you say others agree I was rude, and fine, but at the same time, people also agreed with me that America had negatives?

I haven't attacked anyone for their beliefs. The pathetic comment was in response to the anger and attitudes rather than beliefs, so I've attacked no one for supporting America. As my first line says I am literally asking what makes it great. Also, regarding the apology, well then I do say sorry, that's miscommunication as in my experience saying "I take it back" is usually synonymous with an apology.

Good on you though, lead by example. But you can't lead if you can't discuss the issues and think of an alternative or solution. If you want a solution, you need to do research. I've posted lists and statistics through each of those links, so if you want to lead and discuss how to change, then you need to look at what the other countries are doing differently. So if you want to fight for what's right, rather than bashing someone for pointing out a flaw, talk it through calmly and discuss either
a; why it is not a flaw
b; what should be done differently
Rather than saying it's none of my business what another country does, when it frankly is when that countries actions affect me too, and considering its a free forum, I can say what I like on here, considering my post was calm and didn't attack anyone. It was literally facts and statistics I invited people to dispute.

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Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Empty
PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime7/8/2016, 1:26 am

Your post may have been calm and debate-friendly, but I asked all of you to stop it. Don't use your admin privileges to reply on a locked topic where John can't answer. Go to PM or Skype if you need to, but stop commenting on this very topic, you already have one warning.

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PostSubject: Re: Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?)   Because People are pissy. (Is it fair to say America is great?) Icon_minitime

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